zircon kernel vs linux

zircon kernel vs linux

So you do not have to constantly go back to the kernel. Two negative points can be noted: Fuchsia doesn't (yet?) The "open file" example seems really chatty. Linux was just not designed for that. Not having to support old Pentiums makes the kernel cleaner. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, Fuchsia, a new Operating System by Google -- https://fuchsia.dev/, Press J to jump to the feed. The big change between this and their existing OS – Chrome and Android – is they will be using a new type of kernel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azt8Nc-mtKM&t=62s. It is a bit insane that we have never looked at addressing the negative of a microkernel with hardware. I would expect new silicon to come that is optimized for Zircon. So you can have a core servicing I/O while the application is running on a different core. – Margaret Bloom Nov 16 at 14:20 @MargaretBloom makes total sense, thanks – Guerlando OCs Nov 17 at 1:31 This makes your question flawed. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. But some of the big ones. Also kernels should not happen in isolation. There is different design decisions you would make. Zircon is developed in C++. what about board driver, they seem make a "board_xxx " style board specification like the older /arch/arm. Zircon is 64bit only and only supports x86 and arm, making it a lot simpler than Linux while still supporting all the devices that Google cares about. Thank you! Does anyone have any figures on the messaging overheads of these fundamental FS calls (for example) to compare to a monolithic kernel design? Written by Michael Larabel in Linux Kernel on 30 April 2020 at 03:27 AM EDT. It is a bit insane that we have never looked at addressing the negative of a microkernel with hardware. It is possible/likely that Zircon will be more efficient than Linux when there is more cores. It is like one giant program. First of all zircon is a micro kernel as opposed to the linux monolithic kernel. The debate also never really considered changes in silicon to help. I suspect the primary reason Google is creating. It uses a capabilities based security approach. There is a lot more. It’s all Google. These services are all tightly coupled, and if any of them fail, the entire kernel panics, throws up all over itself and crashes the machine. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Anything can pretend to be a filesystem without having to mess with FUSE or whatever. Fuchsia is not built on Linux kernel, so that’s what separates it from Android and Chrome OS. https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/docs/+/ea2fce2874556205204d3ef70c60e25074dc7ffd/development/languages/fidl/tutorial.md. Even namespaces. The thing that bothers me is the overheads of all this messaging and context switching. But the core benefit to Zircon is making it easier to iterate on hardware. Which Google is taking with Zircon. Google embeds the Linux kernel in Android and ChromeOS. But that was also a very different time. I remember when it happened as old and was on Usenet at the time. It feels very much like the Windows kernel. A huge one is Linux normal I/O is synchronous. https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/hardware_software_co_design/. This also enables a type of pipelining. Existing Google operating systems run on Linux, but this combined OS will run on Zircon (named after the mineral) This is rumored to be consistently upgradeable and extremely secure. Fuchsia builds a much larger OS on top of this foundation. Plus with Zircon an interrupt can be serviced from user mode. These mechanisms include low-level address space management, thread management, and inter-process communication (IPC).. Zircon commits the same mistake with its `object_get_prop` [1] and `object_get_info` [2]. Zircon is the core platform that powers the Fuchsia OS. For instance, some say that a benefit of a microkernel is the ability to hot-swap some critical system components, but Linux seems to also capable of that through Loadable Kernel Modules (to my understanding). Linux can do anything in future versions. Not having to support old Pentiums makes the kernel cleaner. I have run on my PB which is X86. Zircon (formerly Magenta) is the basis of the new Google operating system, but strictly speaking it is not part of Fuchsia OS and could be used with other operating systems as well. Plus more specialized cores. Funny enough, Apple has been doing this with their Hybrid kernel (XNU) and A-series processor designs. Zircon is 64bit only and only supports x86 and arm, making it a lot simpler than Linux while still supporting all the devices that Google cares about. All Zircon system calls except the wait calls are asynchronous, non-blocking and preemptable. According to the documentation, Fuchsia aims to be a modular, capability-based operating system using a so-called Zircon kernel, which is a microkernel providing the … Linux 5.5 vs. 5.6 vs. 5.7 Kernel Benchmarks With The Intel Core i9 10980XE. Darwin uses a C++ subset on IO Kit, and Metal shaders are C++14. Which causes less code localization causing lower instruction cache hits. not a "full" kernel, but a monolithic one. The biggest sin of Linux API remains ioctl (and its variants). A big one is Linux is now well over 15 million lines of code which makes it very difficult to secure. So it is easy to write modern async code on Zircon and low-latency realtime support will be much easier to guarantee than on Linux. It is memory access. Zircon is very much in the legacy of linux. I think they’re just using it as a testing environment for their new Zircon kernel. The other is the async aspect of Zircon enables servicing on a different core then made the request. Little Kernel was developed by Travis Geiselbrecht, who had also coauthored the NewOS kernel used by Haiku. Fuchsia is a capability-based operating system built on top of Google's Zircon microkernel, which is itself is based on the little kernel.. It uses Google’s Zircon Kernel as well as a new in-house programming language. Linus refuses to have a kernel/driver ABI. So, here are some of the differences between Google’s Android and the recently announced Harmony OS: Harmony OS Vs Android Comparison It isn’t based on Linux kernel Zirconboot is a mechanism that allows a zircon system to serve as the bootloader for zircon itself. John invented RISC with Dave and John is the chairman and Dave is working for Jeff Dean. Which should get you a far better result but we will have to see. If Linux were to be modified, could it be whittled down to be a small hybrid kernel? So it is easy to write modern async code on Zircon and low-latency realtime support will be much easier to guarantee than on Linux. You run Linux in a VM and therefore QEMU runs in user space and therefore can service interrupts from userland. Also nice name :), New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, Fuchsia, a new Operating System by Google -- https://fuchsia.dev/, Press J to jump to the feed. Written in C++, Zircon is composed of a microkernel plus a set of userspace services, drivers, and libraries that are required to handle system boot, process launch, and other typical kernel … I do believe Zircon will also facilitate some innovation with hardware. https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/fuchsia/+/refs/heads/master/zircon/docs/fair_scheduler.md. Upon further reading, it seems a hybrid kernel is best huh? It enables work to be done on a different core then made the request. While Fuchsia will have security built in, so that for instance any file will be accessible in different ways by different roles / apps / rights. The main difference between Windows Kernel and Linux Kernel is that Windows kernel, which is in Windows Operating System, is a commercial software while Linux Kernel, which is in the Linux Operating System, is an open source software.. It could be a big leap for Google. Fuchsia builds a much larger OS on top of this foundation. The design of drivers and so on looks really flexible. This should really help with making Zircon very flexible. The only way to do it with Linux is a hack. The thing that bothers me is the overheads of all this messaging and context switching. Someone used the older Zircon scheduler as inspiration for a similar scheduler for LInux for example. To elaborate, I understand that Zircon and Linux are inherently different in that one is a microkernel, and the other is monolithic. Besides the microkernel, it includes a small set of userspace services, drivers, and libraries. Zircon is written mostly in C++ , with some parts in assembly language . We’ve seen that the Fuchsia team has been working to bring the Android Runtime to Fuchsia, possibly by making it work directly with the Zircon kernel instead of the Linux kernel. The Zircon Kernel provides syscalls to manage processes, threads, virtual memory, inter-process communication, waiting on object state changes, and locking (via futexes). Fuchsia is not Linux and the Zircon kernel is a microkernel which is based on the Google microkernel infrastructure lk (“Little Kernel”). You can imagine the kernel as a stack of interdependent services, which manage file systems, interprocess communication, drivers, etc. To be clear, I'm sure things like that exist in some sense of the word, but clearly not at the syscall layer. Zirconboot speaks the same boot protocol as Gigaboot described above. It highlights the fact that systemd is a loose papering-over of the mismatches between operating system design evolved from the 1970s, whereas Fuchsia can basically start afresh and without being encumbered with design decisions that may not necessarily make sense with respect to modern computing. In computer science, a microkernel (often abbreviated as μ-kernel) is the near-minimum amount of software that can provide the mechanisms needed to implement an operating system (OS). To use zirconboot, pass the netsvc.netboot=true argument to zircon via the kernel command line. Once they have the Kernel worked out, then they’ll likely transition Android and Chrome OS towards that kernel. The problem with your question is you could customize Linux to be better about doing this and there has been some that have for testing purposes and got amazing results. The way Zircon uses handles, and the zx_object_wait_one() and zx_object_wait_many() functions, really show the Windows influence. To make way for IoT and Mobile Devices, Google has developed an Operation System called Fuchsia. But that is kind of a round peg in a square hole. So having a OS that is better optimized where we are not switching workloads on the core as much would be a big plus. If you pretend to be type safe (have different getters for different obj-types), you can in the long run replace these calls with in-userland static calls where possible to accelerate performance (like linux does for futex and … ll Zircon system calls except the wait calls are asynchronous. AUTOSAR has updated their guidelines to use C++14 instead of C. This is a very important feature to Zircon. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. TL;DR – What can Zircon (and Fuchsia as a whole) do that Linux could never do as well? So on more cores it is likely Zircon will be more efficient than Linux. Couple of things have been done to help. Zircon has a unified system to manage the lifetime of, and control access to, all kernel objects. Our core problem today with Moore's law coming to an end is NOT compute. One of the main features of the Zircon is that drivers sit in userspace, which fixes a big problem that exists currently with Android phones where its very difficult to update Linux versions on the phone separate from the drivers. One is the use of handles for resources managed by the kernel. What ARM hardware today does it even support? There are no file-related system calls. Not the greatest paper but a start on the concepts. The kernel is the core of the operating system. IMO, one of the best Zircoin thing is async kernel API calls. Cookies help us deliver our Services. What I would like to know though, is what are Zircon and Fuchsia capable of that Linux, due to the way it is made, can never do? The problem is our kernels today are monolithic. Another good things comparing with linux reveal from microkernel arch (stable, security, really KIS & less buggy due to much less codebase). It performs functionalities such as communicating with hardware devices, process management, file … The structure of Zircon also opens the door for some innovation in scheduling. How with Moore's law coming to an end it is going to be all about hardware. By my understanding the fact that it's made of millions of lines of code, and they all have access to the user space, could allow some malicious code to theoretically access it all, relying on any bug. Zircon is a small fraction. In Linux, the kernel is a single large process. Coupled with a stable driver API makes Fuchsia way easier to update than Android. You set up a chunk of memory that is mapped into multiple process memory spaces. What's also useful to think about is Linux has a kludge of various technologies like those found with systemd. Also the really tight control over who can do what. Zircon is composed of a microkernel (source in /zircon/kernel) as well as a small set of userspace services, drivers, and libraries (source in /zircon/system/) necessary for the system to boot, talk to hardware, load userspace processes and run them, etc. So serviced on the same core as making the request. A per-CPU area of memory is necessary as the kernel code is made to be run equally on any CPU (so the code is identical but the pointers are not). Why I suspect we will see more and more cores. https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/fuchsia/+/refs/heads/master/zircon/docs/fair_scheduler.md, "BMQ "BitMap Queue" Is The Newest Linux CPU Scheduler, Inspired By Google's Zircon", https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-BitMap-Queue-BMQ. So many people have answered the benefits way better than me :) I would like to add though, that I read an official statement from someone at Google (and unfortunately I can't find a link for it now) that the biggest problem they have with linux kernel is security. You have nothing and then have to enable. You set things up ahead of time. We have not had a new kernel that was front in center in a very, very, very long time. The other interesting fact on Fuchsia isn’t that it won’t be solely used on mobile devices. After paving is completed, the target system should boot in Fuchsia's Zircon kernel rather than the Linux kernel. A more prosaic reason is probably licensing and control over the code and hardware, like Apple. According to Wikipedia, Fuchsia's kernel, Zircon, is not a microkernel because it has more than 170 syscalls. "BMQ "BitMap Queue" Is The Newest Linux CPU Scheduler, Inspired By Google's Zircon", https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-BitMap-Queue-BMQ. Lack of kernel ABI causes an increase in support cost for Google and makes it so they are less agile with Android and ChromeOS. Lack of kernel ABI causes an increase in support cost for Google and makes it so they are less agile with Android and ChromeOS. Linus refuses to have a kernel/driver ABI. So it is very difficult to isolate parts of the kernel to keep on a common core. Not nearly what you are getting with Zircon. This is done up front and then a handle is used going forward. Now Google has come out with an even better scheduler and one of the most impressive schedulers I have seen and I am old. It makes more sense to compare Zircon to seL4, or an operating system framework like Genode (which runs on seL4) to Fuchsia. A microkernel is a good choice for embedded systems and it’s more secure than normal conventional kernels, because the code lines are kept as small as possible and not every functionality is packed into the kernel. I really like the FIDL abstraction Google is using with Zircon. 3 Comments. That never made much sense to me and would think that would be what Google does. I am not following this? Zircon is composed of a microkernel (source in kernel/...) as well as a small set of userspace services, drivers, and libraries (source in system/...) necessary for the system to boot, talk to hardware, load userspace processes and run them, etc. Could you expand on that please? But on a single core I highly doubt it will be but have an open mind. If you listen to their advisors like Eric Schmidt or Dave Patterson or John Hennessey among others they are all talking about the same thing. All device specific code like drivers and the Zircon equivalent of device tree are outside the kernel so the same ARM Zircon image is used for all devices. Lowers context switches and flushing instruction cache. I'll briefly compare seL4 to Zircon. Aside from wanting to get away from the GPL as some suggest, I can't really see a reason for Google to want to make a whole new kernel from scratch, when Linux seems like a more practical choice as a mature platform adopted widely by the industry, and one that they also have a lot of experience developing with. We already have two generations with someone actually porting the concepts of the first to Linux. Because Android is Linux based and largely licensed under the GPL, Google has no option but to make it open. Security with Zircon is completely different. Zircon contains the kernel of Fuchsia OS , the device manager, the most core and first party device drivers, and low-level system libraries such as libc and launchpad. They were designed while Moore's law was going strong. but the second is really exciting. It uses micro kernel named Zircon. Lots of benefits and then some negatives. A huge one is Linux normal I/O is synchronous. All the big kernels right now are 30 years old and were designed for a very different time. Zircon is the core platform that powers the Fuchsia. Plus causing a context switch. Zircon. This with new silicon better optimized would make a big difference. That means you have more control over what those pesky vendors put into your kernel to slow it down. If the hardware provides multiple rings or CPU modes, the microkernel may be … Much of the issues with a microkernel are resolved when you have multiple cores and new approaches. This is weird because Google considers Zircon a microkernel and I've never heard of the number of supported syscalls being the determining factor of the type of kernel, so I don't know how the Wikipedia editor came to this conclusion. It means the system call can be serviced on a different core than the one making the call. Default I/O on Zircon is async. It's really cool! The Zircon Kernel concept page notes, "The kernel manages a number of different types of Objects. The majority of deep learning APIs being used from Python, R and friends are written in C++. Cookies help us deliver our Services. This is also the main reason why Google is creating a new kernel for the phone to replace Linux called Zircon. The async aspect is critical. Overall, its kernel design is inherently safer than Linux's, and the mitigations and security practices around it are better than those currently adopted in Linux. Interesting! But you have me curious? Zircon also makes heavy use of shared memory for messages. Had they decided to use a heavily modified Linux kernel instead, would any of their architectural choices for the Fuchsia project not be possible? So lets look at some of the advantages of an microkernel over a monolith: Segmentation, a micro kernel has a very segmented model and drivers live outside of the kernel. support the CFI and PAC mitigations. This is the Zircon kernel's list of system calls This is the Zircon kernel's list of system calls.. Notice one glaring absence? This is something that Zircon supports from the ground up. So serviced on the same core as making the request. I’m very ignorant when it comes to drivers and how/why they matter on SoCs. Each approach has different pros and cons. First, it's built on the Zircon micro-kernel. Google embeds the Linux kernel in Android and ChromeOS. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Zircon also supports IPI. Here is a paper on the subject. Zircon is a small fraction. Zircon would allow arm to continue to keep the monopoly on mobile SOCs while never updating any driver ever. Beyond the Linux kernel, all native parts on Android are written in C++.

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